Forum:Help me find out if the +2 rare item finder works on chests!!!!!

End Results
The raw data can be seen below. In short, it looks as if wearing the mod does not affect what colors come out of a chest. Due to margin of error and the fact that the data isn't beyond reproach I'm going to say that we can reasonably come to the conclusion that the color of an item coming out of a chest isn't affected by +2 Team Find Rare Items Mods. (If it is, the effect is so small that its not worth taking into account.)

Suggestions for new experiments
I think that perhaps we are looking at this incorrectly. As the experiments have shown, +Find Rare Items seems to have little to no bearing on the color rarity of the item drop. That being said, another discussion on this page dealt with the rarity of weapons based upon their individual parts. I think this is really where the mod is working. Consider the following, which I found here: Each manufacturer has normal, uncommon, and rare versions of each weapon, as was alluded to by Doctorgray below. What this suggests is that there are various ways of measuring item rarity, as has been discussed here before. From what I have found (no recorded data yet but about 25 New Haven runs yesterday) while there is no apparrent change in the color of drops, there is a noticeable increase in the manufacturer's rarity when equipping the mod. In other words, the number of Green and Blue drops may not decrease when using the mod, however you are more likely to get a Green Hyperion ".G" pistol rather than a Green Hyperion "normal" pistol. If anyone would care to challenge or support this, please do! -Adam  07:14 2/21/10
 * Tediore: Uncommon - -A, Rare - -B
 * Vladof: Uncommon - /V2, Rare - /V
 * Dahl: Uncommon - U, Rare - D
 * S&S: Uncommon - .2, Rare - .3
 * Maliwan: Uncommon - B, Rare - C
 * Jakobs: Uncommon - ZZ, Rare - XX
 * Hyperion: Uncommon - .W, Rare .G

I think the experiments should be retested in the 1.21 version. Just a thought:P After installing the patch, I got some kind of improvement with this COM. Like, I found two eridian blasters in chests in just one run in Crimson Fortress. I have also found during the same relatively short play three other red texted weapons (not in chests but not boss weapons either). That makes 5 such weapons and it is definitely above my typical stats in the previous version of the game.

87.194.188.201 00:26, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, what these mods may effect more than anything else is the rarity of the parts which make up the items that come out of the chest. I.E. If you were finding a volcano, with no mod you'd find a GGN Volcano (base), with a +2 mod you'd find a VRR Volcano (1 step up) and with +4 total you'd find a DVL Volcano (2 steps up). If someone would like to perform an experiment to see whether this is true, you'd need to collect data on each and every weapon collected including its color and the exact name in order to tell what the subset rarity is. You could go even further and look at each item in a hex editor to catalog what parts the guns are made up of.

23:08, January 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * my original idea was this:
 * Test with 4 players using +2 rare item find class mods. (to hopefully produce more profound results)
 * Test with all players at level 50. (to rule out level effecting chests)
 * Only open red chests. (to rule out chest type effecting results)
 * Record specific color. (including yellow/orange/red/pearl)
 * Record item money value. (i have a guess that it might reflect how good the game thinks the item is)
 * Record item name?? (this is going to be hard to "use" in reflection)


 * (Through modding +3 rare find class mods are possible, as well as +2 rare find grenades and +2 rare find shields. +7 rare find per character, +28 rare find with 4 players. Since modding in this fashion will, in the case of Siren's Catalyst, also increase the action cool rate (and add it to your grenade and shield as well), phasewalk's cooldown will be negligible with 4 Sirens in a group, farming any Red Chest is now painless and quick.) --Injekt 05:11, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * alternatively we could keep doing the 5 chest run to speed things up, i'm just trying to rule out anything that would effect the quality of items dropped except for the class mod. additionally i think it's a good idea to attempt to document as much information as possible--though i think recording the full item name (to find out which parts make up the item) can become unruly and will probably make it hard to compile the data. but, recording the full name of an item could provide a lot of information for people to come back to later (outside of this experiment).
 * also can anyone link me up to some info on the parts that make up weapons and how that works? --sX-- 07:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * For parts and save editing http://blmodding.wikidot.com/ is useful. Be careful, their numbers are very empirical and relative to the base stats of the weapon type, not the inherent properties of the part. Which is mostly fine if you're talking items that actually spawn in game, and not monstrosities like we cooked up here. I also recommend the save editor linked from blmodding on this tutorial page.
 * The debug console can be used to see actual rarity levels, and even all the parts, in game. It's described on this wiki at PC_Tweaks --Raisins 08:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Mordecaindy 17:39, December 27, 2009 (UTC) I have been reading your page on the +2 rare item finder with intent interest. Like the +1 shield mod which I cannot understand, I still cannot understand the +2 rare item finder. Since your experiments and subsequent analysis have not yielded any obvious benefits from the equipping of this mod, I wonder if it applies to other situations. Possibilities of rare finds with the mod equipped that come to my mind that you haven't explored yet are: 1)More rare items appear for sale in vending machines 2)More rare items are dropped when using special ability skills and kills (such as Bloodwing for Mordecai, and in this case, skills that generate drops from special abilities must have a skill point assigned to the appropriate category to make it active) 3)More rare items appear from skag piles. {This is my first contribution for a wiki page ever so if I have not inserted this contribution in the appropriate place or have otherwise done anything incorrectly, please educate me.} Let me know if you want some help exploring any of these possibilities if you have interest in them. Mordecaindy 17:39, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Note: I wanted to add that after doing some experimenting (before reading you're experiment), in 2 player co-op, I can definetely say I have seen a difference in skag pile booty most notably. And this was done with a +1 rare find mod. I do not have hard numbers but am just offering a suggestion for futher discussion.-posted by Hunt3r

Does wearing a +2 Team Find Rare Items Mod effect the items which spawn in a chest?
ok so this is how we can compile statics and help up find out if they really work on chests. to do this we all have to follow the same rules that way all our numbers will work together instead of work against each other.

RULES MOVED TO TOP OF PAGE by Doctorgray

also if someone knows how to set up a chart that would be nice, i do not.

so i got 4 runs i'll put up

WITH +2 RARE finder CLASS MOD ON
 * runs 25 - 25 - 25 - 25
 * average item per run 14.52 - 13.48 - 14.56 - 13.92
 * pearlescent 1 - 0 - 0 - 0
 * orange 2 - 5 - 1 - 8
 * yellow 5 - 8 - 4 - 7
 * purple 64 - 51 - 49 - 30
 * blue 77 - 69 - 87 - 86
 * green 122 - 121 - 125 - 120
 * white 89 - 83 - 96 - 91
 * eridian 3 - 2 - 2 - 6
 * total 363 - 323 - 364 - 348

ideas, thoughts and constructive criticism are all welcome. i hope others out there are fed up that they will not tell us what exactly what it affects and want to try and find out.

Wylde bil 06:26, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

As per the older thread Forum:Rare_Item_Effect_Mods, i did a bit of the same thing --Raisins 06:30, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Newhaven 6 chest runs. Seven times each with and without +2 Find Rare Items.

I really hope it works because I've done all my looting there w/ a +2 rare item mod. I've noticed that when I don't wear it, I usually see white/green items in chests and when I do I see more blue and purple. Then again, it could just be my imagination. I'll do some runs tomorrow and post them.

Anyway, I did an analysis of the stats above and so far there's not enough data to tell whats up. What I can tell you is this: You're likely to get about 2.3 items per chest regardless and orange items are going to come up about or less than .05% of the time. This means that you're likely to see an orange item every 20 chests or so. Now this doesn't mean you can't go 100 runs w/out an orange item but it means that you're likely to average out to about that. I'm guessing the mod has an effect, but I don't think its anything remarkable. It's probably just a difference of .01 % chance per chest for orange and a bit more for less rare items.

Suggestions: Instead of asking people to do this in sets of 25, ask them to do this in multiples of 5 that way people can still contribute even if they don't have the time to spend an hour in New Haven.

I do not recommend doing the 6th chest (near the bandit encampment) in this run. A) It takes more time than its worth B) Its too easy to forget not to kill enemies thereby creating a risk for corrupt data. C) It's much easier to compute data w/ multiples of 5 or 10 (5 chests, 5 runs, etc)

--Doctorgray 11:21, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * i fear i must respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague. i am unconvinced the bonus does not apply to the entire area occupied by the player vice played as an instant (MtG ref) i.e. when each item spawns. i am interested in this thread as my theory is the mod provides an area of effect/affect and to be fair my proof would require raiding _all_ boxes _and_ killing every spawn-able enemy in said area (new haven). this is tedious i know but i should point out that i rarely get [0] yellow+, but from your data neither do you. Dr. Clayton Forrestor 14:37, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

doctorgray that makes complete sense it just frustrates me that my data is no good for that now cause the numbers are skewed for the 6 chest and that was 4 hours of work, umm for the 6th chest if you go the back side to the chest you never fight bandits and if you hug the trash pile the bugs don't even come out as you see i have extensive knowledge on this because i did it for 4 hours lol if we shorten it ot the 5 chest in the town then do you think we have to throw my data out? also side note i have found weapons i use out of that chest though i will admit i had to go through tons of trash guns to get to them. Wylde bil 13:57, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

GOD DAMN there are alot of doctors in this room LOL, makes me feel sooo soo soo small anyway dr. clayton one step at a time i was thinkin the same thing but just wanted to do the chest first, also doing enemies require documentation of what type of enemy. i mean superbad drop better stuff then normal bandits, and the random generator they have doing the guns is similar if not the same as the one that does enemies sooo we could go through once and get no superbads then turn around and hit 6 or 7 and that will skew our numbers so that would have to be done separately, look at all the work we have to do cause gearbox cant give us the simple answer of what +2 rare finders effect. Wylde bil 15:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * it is my sneaking suspicion mr bil, that you have hit upon the very reason _why_ gearbox has not and may never reveal the exact process of +x find rare items. being the fact that gamers such as ourselves will exhaust hours of gametime and compose titanic treatises such as this just to uncover a theory as what it does. gametime = >product = >$,£, etc. Dr. Clayton Forrestor 16:59, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

To both Dr's points, either it works on chests or it doesn't. Testing any set of chests (or set of enemies) should show the effect if it exists, you shouldn't need to test the whole area. Wylde bil's data is fine, probably. Paranoid musings: Loading-in is not the same a zoning in. I know this because the secret Weapon Vending Machine never spawns if you start the game in New Haven, but has a chance to whenever you travel to New Haven from anywhere else. Maybe this effects item generation. --Raisins 17:21, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * my dear raisins you make an excellent point however comma your reasoning is contradictory. im not practicing proctology here, just saying, this mod either affects the area or it doesnt. i had not put together that the vendor never opens when spawning excuse me loading in. and i express no refutation whatsoever of Mr. Hiccock's data. i was just throwing my sandal into the cogs for a bit of unearned glory on the OP's coat-tails. i shall shut up now as the nurse is coming for my weekly sponge bath and im not allowed to be "playing-on-the-internet" excepting outdoor periods. Dr. Clayton Forrestor

In response to Wilde Bill:

We shouldn't have to throw out your data as long as you didn't kill any enemies. Every thing will work out fine, I was just making the point that not only is it quicker but its easy to compute. Anyway, if some more people take the time to write down their results we should be able to figure this out quite quickly. It'd be nice if we could get 10,000 chests worth of data. This means we'd need 2,000 runs I.E. 200 people to do 10 runs each. (5 w/ 5 w/out) Please please don't take this to mean that you should do it yourself. I'm sure some people will contribute over time as this issue isn't going away. I'll try to get in around 50 runs today since I've got some time on my hands, I'll post the results here and the computations at pastebin.com --Doctorgray 17:31, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

really you think, cause i figure once they got our money they could really careless how long we play, they already got our money, look how long it took to fix core issues on all plat forms, then take in the account DLC are coming every month, i figure for 2 reason they know they got a good structure but lack things to make it re-playable other then us obsessive gun hunters and to make more money, telling us won't keep either of those facts from people playing the game but at the most change their strategies while playing them, now i only play 2 games borderlands and NBA 2K10 both are major titles for 2K and both came out with serious serious core issues that have taken months to patch had made me contemplate trading both in but because the structures of thee games were so sound i was basically sitting there and taking it and askin for more til they fixed the issues, both have made me restart because of these issues too, i guess i went on this rant for one simple thing telling me wouldn't change how long i play the game sooooooooooooo GEARBOX just tell me what it does and doesn't effect already cause the only thing i'm doing more is typing on this message board because of you not telling us. o and raisins i get that secret machine fine from loading in to the zone it happens about 1 out of 4 times for me and im glade i don't have to do it alone cause it wouldn't get done lol Wylde bil 17:34, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

125 chests - New Haven - +2 Mod

--Doctorgray 21:06, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Hey everyone. I ended up doing 10 New Haven runs of the 5 chests, both with and without the rare item finder mod. I also sorted out the weapons I found by material grade (e.g. "ZZ" is uncommon and "XX" rare for Jakobs weapons) to see if the mod affected material grade rather than color rarity. Anyway these are my findings, feel free to consolidate the values into the groupings you want if you don't want them so separated.

Notes: I also placed low quality weapons into the Common Category (C). Also, I'm not 100% sure if Torgue and Atlas weapons display their material grade all the time, so the numbers may be skewed towards common for every Torgue and Atlas weapon I found. The Misc. category contains shields/grenade mods/class mods/eridian weapons.

100 chests - New Haven

--DrKirth 22:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

my results are percent of total (not percent per chest): Dr. Clayton Forrestor 23:37, December 12, 2009 (UTC) 7 runs each. 6 chests.

*= notably two of these were ultra-white (cyclops and invader pistol).

ok wow this changed real fast anyway i have 100 more runs of 6 chest so a total of 600 more chest with the mod on, since i see we have more of that the next set i do will be without i also notice we got another doc too lol

WITH +2 RARE finder CLASS MOD ON
 * runs 25 - 25 - 25 - 25
 * average item per run 13.68 - 12.28 - 13.64 - 14.36
 * pearlescent 0 - 1 - 0 - 0
 * orange 5 - 4 - 6 - 6
 * yellow 3 - 1 - 8 - 5
 * purple 42 - 34 - 41 - 43
 * blue 77 - 71 - 58 - 72
 * green 128 - 115 - 133 - 149
 * white 86 - 74 - 91 - 79
 * eridian 1 - 7 - 4 - 5
 * total 342 - 307 - 341 - 359

i can't wait for the next dlc so i can stop have 12 other character on another Xbox 360 id full just to hold all my gear Wylde bil 07:37, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

ooo also someone brought up about the extra machine in new haven if you want i have stats on how often it comes out to play and i have stats on what was in both of them, though i was only counting the pearlescent, orange, yellow and purple if anyone wants to know, o yeah i have started to notice on the runs i can start to guesstimate what is in the last 2 chest depending on the first 4 so far that i have been doing it I've been right about 75% of the time, i wanna see if anyone else notice some things. if you get more then whites then you get an orange, yellow or a couple of purples, but more greens or blues mean at best a yellow or purple. it might be random but each run seems to have a balance, i've had a run were i got 4 yellow / oranges but mostly everything else was white, i also seem to get more oranges when i open revolver or repeater cases it makes me wonder if that is cause of what i have in my hand or due to my proficiency level. anyway i'm glade we could work together to crack this mystery. Wylde bil 07:59, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

--Doctorgray 10:43, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Not to mess up the flow here or just interject without contribution (though I am playing on xbox). Do you think it would be wise to do a small sample with 4 players using +2 rare item find mods? This SHOULD have a more pronounced effect on the results. Something just seems plain wrong about the current results... as there is more than enough data collected for looting the chests while the mod is on and nearly enough to get a rough guess of the results for looting with the mod off. (sorry if my formatting is off, i'm new to wikis) --sX-- 05:55, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

At this point in the experiment we do not have enough data to see valid results. I predict that round 2000 chests each we'll start to see what the percentages are going to end up like. To get a valid data set I'd like to see 5000 chests each. This will obviously take time and no one is in a hurry here.

Your suggestion to have a small sample might seem valid but it's completely wrong. For example, you can flip a coin 5 times and have it come up tails each time. According to your method this would mean that coins always come up tails. However, if you flip a coin 1000 times the chances of it coming up tails 100% of the time is minutely small. This is why larger data sets are better... Odd runs may occur, but over time your data is going to come to its center. --Doctorgray 07:03, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * "Completely wrong" is somewhat arbitrary. The data is valid, your confidence is what increases with the amount of data. 95% level confidence in our proportions is approximately B=sqrt(1/N). Even at populations 359 and 1459 items, that's 5.2% and 2.6% (N.B. this is P/item not P/C. We don't have data on individual chests so we should switch to P/item anyway.). I agree it's not yet conclusive, but it's close to enough to start worrying. --Raisins 08:36, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * What i'm saying is that either the +2 rare item is going to have a profound effect on loot, or it is going to have a very small effect on loot, requiring a very large sample size to come to a definitive conclusion. Right now from the data that has been collected, something seems very off, with the +2 rare item find yielding more whites. +8 rare item find (from 4 players in a game each with a mod) SHOULD yield much more noticeable effects requiring a smaller sample size to come to a conclusion. at least i'm assuming that the point of this whole experiment is PRIMARILY to determine if +2 rare item find effects chests and secondarily how much it effects them. --sX-- 18:09, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

yes i agree this is and will be a slow and arduous task and expecting a quick answer or to be able to see anything in incomplete data is very presumptuous; also it is not limited to the 4 people doing it now, it is open to anyone that can follow the guide lines on the top of the page. Wylde bil 13:54, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

I'll start running this tonight. Pdboddy 17:11, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

@--sX-- I don't know how many times I can explain this, but that wouldn't help at all. It would still be a smaller data set and you would still have odd data because you don't have enough. The fact that the data looks weird at the moment does not mean that the experiment is bad or not working, it just means that we're not done yet. The way we're doing it now is the best IMO, for a couple of reasons.

A) Its a pain to open lots of chests w/out killing w/ multiple people in game. B) We don't know the how +2 rare stacks with multiple people in game. C) No matter how wierd you think the data looks it's working just fine. D) Less Data = Less Reliable Result... It doesn't matter if the effect is profound, the more data you have the more reliable the result will be, and collecting a mass of data your way would be extremely difficult. Not to mention uneccesary.

@Raisins I know that the data seems odd but in reality we have absolutely no idea what effect the item will have on gameplay/finding of items so maybe it's not odd. Maybe the +2 rare negatively effects chests and we're on the right track. None of us know and none of us will know unless we get a decent sample size (~2000 chests each).


 * "@unsigned poster" you are just making excuses to go about things the hard way. If over 1000 chests isn't enough data to start showing a trend, then the mod either doesn't effect chests or it's going to take a unreasonable amount of time for this information to come together. i could see you requesting people at this point to only open chests without the mod on, but i can't see wasting time going to or over a sample size of over 2000 chests for each without knowing the mods effect chests in the first place. considering a way to get more dramatic results, thus PROVING that these class mods effect chests seems more important to me than having people waste god knows how many hours providing 1200 or more chests. "if we equip +2 rare item class mods, it should provide better loot from chests." that is the question you're trying to answer here, not what how often you'll get better loot. if four players in a game with these mods on don't produce enough of a change over a small sample, i don't believe this mod would be practical in the first place and if you want to waste time finding out just how little impact it has, be my guest. as for you blatantly shooting this idea down by saying "we don't know how these stack", it's pretty safe to assume if any of the other team class mod effects stack, that this also stacks.


 * it would have been much more efficient to attempt to prove the mods work in the first place before aiming for a very large sample size. yes, smaller sample sizes will provide a larger swing in data. yes, they are less accurate. reread the title. "help me find out if +2 rare item finder works on chests." four people could've had that much knocked out in a couple of hours. instead, now you're stuck collecting data from multiple people in their spare time, hoping the information provided is reliable, and marching on into an infinite amount of data to collect to make sure it's accurate enough.


 * additionally, there are more things to consider here, such as whether what the game considers a better weapon has anything to do with the color of the weapon text. it is possible that the game might rate certain whites higher than greens or blues and that would be skewing data... though i am jumping the gun because i'd like to see more data on un-modded chests. --sX-- 20:16, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Say you get 1000 items in multiplayer, 500 with mods and 500 without. That would give results with plus or minus 4.4% confidence (19 times out of 20). Assuming the effect is four times as strong with +8 that might be enough to see it. But 1000 items is about 75 runs. That's a serious time commitment for four people. This is also assuming that multiplayer doesn't mess with the mod-relative rarity. --Raisins 22:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * do you know? i have been pondering that myself. does this mod focus on loot/swag? my detonating bitch flew out of a scythid and the quality of weapons used against me does seem to be higher with this mod. also i have noticed enemies performing a draw/switch animation on approach - this makes no sense as they have only one weapon each on spawn, unless the mod gives it to them! still i would _think_ the mod would apply to items _found_. keeping in mind that rare could mean >green(blue+). should we perhaps look at single chests like above scooter's and the deathbox in north Rust Commons West? not in this study of course. <+>Dr. Clayton Forrestor 19:41, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * i was thinking the same thing earlier about doing it on a single chest. considering we have no idea how chests work in the first place. it is possible that gearbox could've designed the game to allow certain chests to lean toward a specific type of weapon or rarity. the only problem with this is that it would take a long, long, long time. i think if this approach was done (in another test), that it would probably be best to still loot the 5 chests in new haven, but to record the results of each chest individually. another potential issue that i noted above is that the game may treat the actual "value" of loot different than our own perceived value (text color). it may be possible that the resale value of the item might be a better indicator. perhaps a new test that could address several of these questions would be a good idea (after this one is done). --sX-- 20:29, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * actually, it just occurred to me that if player level effects drops in any way, this data is flawed if everyone hasn't been looting these chests at 50. (observe chest drops early game vs item drops late game) --sX-- 20:30, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * If these results go bad, removing things like level as systemic bias is an idea. Also I agree there are other things we could be measuring. As i understand it, every part has a rarity, which sum to a rarity total for the gun. The colors are ranges for that score. It would be best if we could somehow use that. --Raisins 22:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

ok were are the stats i posted i just posted 600 chest no mod and now its gone,

WITHOUT MOD
 * runs 25 - 25 - 25 - 25
 * average item per run 13.48 - 13.88 - 12.76 - 13.76
 * pearlescent 0 - 0 - 0 - 0
 * orange 4 - 7 - 5 - 9
 * yellow 2 - 5 - 3 - 2
 * purple 45 - 45 - 53 - 40
 * blue 78 - 75 - 60 - 82
 * green 128 - 129 - 115 - 99
 * white 72 - 83 - 80 - 104
 * eridian 8 - 3 - 3 - 8
 * total 337 - 347 - 319 - 344

here it is again Wylde bil 22:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Raisins -- If you're so convinced that your method will work better and faster, go do it instead of trying to convince us that our method isn't working.


 * Bil -- Thanks for the data.
 * Sx -- There are problems on both sides of the isle. On this side you don't know how Xbox/PC effects drops, whether level effects drops, whether cash effects drops, etc. On the Multi-Player (4 people w/ mods side) you don't know most of the same things (besides platform) plus you have to wonder how the mod effects stack; However, if you collect data from only one source, its a reliable way to do this. (It doesn't matter if its 4 people or 1 person, 1 source whose party/person doesn't change their $$, level, inventory and area throughout the entire experiment would yield the best results) Either way, the more data the better. However, this method should at least give us a good idea of what happens, if it doesn't, oh well. Also, trying to do it the other way could be a bit problematic. Most people won't be willing to not pickup a perfect {insert favorite item here}.

To those who think this is a waste of time... People aren't being forced to work on this. They don't have to submit findings. I imagine that most of the people submitting more than a small amount of data enjoy doing things like this. Just because we spent X hours collecting data doesn't mean we wasted our time. Not only are we collecting data for this experiment, we're also collecting many orange items we previously didn't have. For those of us who don't enjoy dupes/hacks/etc that's a good thing. --Doctorgray 23:18, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * your problem is that you're overly defensive about all of this. and yes... it is a waste of time if you have to open another 4000 chests because the experiment wasn't thought through and you wind up realizing you have to throw all of the old data out.. --sX-- 23:44, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said anything was a waste of time. If this works then we don't need to do anything else. But if it doesn't work we will need to improve the next experiment. If --sX-- has the people and the time, his multiplayer idea could be useful as an independent experiment. As for this one, with Bil's latest we are well back to sanity, the data is fine now. So far we've proved the mod's effect on chests is ~2% or smaller:
 * RareFindItem 3339 2158.PNG--Raisins 00:08, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm working on getting a siren to 50 right now, and i have a friend who has a 50 siren, so if anyone has a copy of borderlands for the xbox, let me know, and we can hook up later sometime and knock out some chest runs. i'll make a forum post when i'm ready for it. --sX-- 09:01, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

yeah i really have nothing better to do all day got hurt at work and am waiting for my 2nd surgery, anyway boy do i have more stuff now i have 16 characters filled with stuff not to mention what i have on my 3 characters. now things i have noticed no clue if its luck or the class mod, but the items i have found with it on are far better, some of the purples i found with the mod have been ridicules. also i have notice that people that play multi-player seem to see higher damage guns, maybe that's cause they face worst enemies cause the highest normal damage gun i found was a sniper with only 901 damage, i've seen on here where people have volcanos with more damage then that. anyway, i'll still do runs, so we'll get to 2,000 each. Wylde bil 23:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

nice graph raisins! i've also been lookin into its effects on machines have those stats too. Wylde bil 00:31, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not attempting to be overly defensive, I'm saying even if this experiment fails it wasnt a waste of time and/or useless or anything else. It'll still serve a purpose. While you might be correct and we'll have to do this again, don't tell us that this experiment is ruined. We're having fun.

Anyway, I forget who mentioned it, but I think the idea that "colors" matter less than the rarity of the weapons themselves could be valid. I was in a game today where we both had +2 rare and I found my first DVL Volcano... Almost every other I've found has been GGN or VRR. So maybe the mod doesn't effect what colors come up but how rare the actual item under that color can be. In other words, you guys are probably right and we probably will have to do another experiment if we really want to know the effects of the mod. Even so, let us finish this in peace please :).

--Doctorgray 02:46, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * i'm just critical. but i, myself, would be fearful of having everyone contributing feeling burned out and discouraged if the data had to be scrapped and restarted after 4000 chests opened. i also have fun figuring things out and chewing on puzzles, especially the mechanics of video games. WoW had me doing lots of math when i played it a couple of years ago.


 * at any rate, the new total results for chest runs is troubling at the least... even if you account for margin of error, the numbers aren't adding up right. with the widest swing of error, the amount of purples you get WITH the mod on is 4% less than with it off. the white drops are also similarly strange, and the weirdest thing to me is that the other colors are about even. unexpected.


 * also, i understood what you were trying to get at when you were talking about the margin of error vs sample size. this wikipedia article on margin of error is pretty helpful if anyone else needs clarification ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error --sX--
 * Are you using data from the spreadsheet error where it's adding no-mod purples wrong? (it said 375 39.10% 17.38% when it was really 313 32.64% 14.50%) Look at my chart, that's using correct data. Purples with the mod on could still be up to 2% better within error. --Raisins 10:29, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, 5 runs (25 chests total) with the mod on.

Please note: I have not modified the table at the beginning of the article. It's a little late, and I don't want to make a mess of things, I'll do it in the morning, or, someone else can if they wish. As an aside, the two orange weapons I got in this set of runs were from the same chest, a Maliwan Pestilent Defiler and an Atlas Troll. Two permanent additions to my backpack! :D Pdboddy 04:12, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Before I forget, can someone with a Google account correct the error in the spreadsheet? On the No Mod tab, the Purple-ALL RUNS total in cell B13 is "=SUM(B2:J3)". It should be "=SUM(B3:J3)". --Raisins 09:51, December 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am unable to edit the sheet. Pdboddy 13:20, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

NO MOD Purple Lines Fixed

PDBoddy's data added

After looking at the data some more, and fooling w/ a save file editor I'm almost convinced that while the mod might effect the color of items, it most likely has a more profound effect on the rarity of the items themselves and the rarity of the parts that make up the items (To examine the item's parts you'll need to look at each item in a save file editor).

Without a Mod you might find a volcano with a rarity of 3 or 4 and the parts that make up the weapon might be 1, 2 or 3. With the mod on you might find a volcano with a rarity of 5 and the parts 3 or 4. With multiple mods you'd find a volcano with a rarity of 5 and parts 5.

I.E. GGN Volcano vs. VRR550 Fearsome Volcano vs. DVL29 Fearsome Volcano

If I'm correct, this experiment will have served a purpose in so far as it will tell us more about how the mods work, however it will not have the results that we thought it would. While I certainly don't have the time to slave over a save file editor after each run cataloging the details of each weapon I find, if someone wants to try it, go for it.

--Doctorgray 10:38, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this experiment.

I thought I would share my experience with the +2 rare item mod as Mordecai - it isn't a scientific experiment. For 6 hours yesterday on a day off I did a with and without informal test harvesting the 5 moving red chests in the Crimson Fastness. I choose this area because all the chests are red and you can move through the area pretty fast if you have a powerful elemental weapon (Fearsome Volcano Sniper, Wicked Firehawk Repeater, Pestilent Defiler Revolver, Pestilent Crux Shotgun). While I cannot prove it yet, I definitely noticed a difference in three ways: a) many more purple and orange items (I harvested at least 3 orange Volcanos, 3 Pestilent Defilers, 2 Firehawks, etc.), b) the rare items tended to be the type of weapon I was favoring. For example, when I repeatedly used the Pestilent Crux shotgun to speed through the Fastness, I ran across a lot of shotguns but when I switched to the Pestilent Defiler revolver, I experience more revolvers and the number of shotguns really dropped off and 3) I tended to receive the elemental choice I was favoring. For example, while I received some blast and shock weapons, I received a lot of fire and acid weapons. I thought this was the case because I always carried 4 of 5 weapons (Fearsome Volcano sniper, Pestilent Defiler revolver, Wicked Firehawk pistol, Savage Masher or Pestilent Crux shotgun).

Today, I am only going to use pistols and revolvers (Pestilent Defiler revolver, Wicked Firehawk pistol, Savage Masher and Savage Equalizer) and see if I can find my dream weapon - Unforgiven Masher with a 4.2 scope.
 * Nice finds. A question though, did you find any of those really nice guns as drops, or were they strictly from chests? I ask because that is a test that might be worth testing out as well: Running through an area hunting mobs specifically and seeing how good the drops are. Pdboddy 20:54, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Pdboddy, most of the guns were in red chests. I did acquire two orange guns and two purple guns on drops which hadn't happened to me before. In the past, I never really paid attention to drops but now I am whenever I use the rare item mod. One of the guns was a Hellfire C SMG that was higher priced and more powerful than the one I was using but did not have a scope so I just sold it.

Yesterday, I also obtained two orange equalizers from chests, one a Savage Equalizer with a mash attachment and a regular Savage Equalizer. I really like the Crimson Fastness area, it is my number one test area because it is all red chests and plenty of drops from 51 SuperBadAss Lance Royal Guards when you are at the point when the iron door/wall raises before you enter the last chamber. I am so convinced wearing the +2 rare item mod is worth it that I have readjusted my skill points to use it almost exclusively (I was modestly using the Ranger mod). Finally, once you learn the area, carry a fire or acid weapon and arm your Bloodwing with the acid, or fire element, you can speed through it. You do have two turrets but if you throw the Bloodwing at it, you really slow it down to the point that you can run past them.

No mod used, 25 runs (125 chests), 328 items found: 80 W, 112 G, 66 B, 55 P, and 15 O. I did have multiple Oranges in a single chest on two occasions- once was three Orange pistols. --Smothermunch 01:10, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

i love multiple rare guns in a chest, i always think what roland say "sweet, it must be christmas" lol Wylde bil 05:40, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Data is a bit odd again but I'm sure it'll settle down with some more entries. Anyway, if anyone on PC wants to trade stuff they've found I'm around. I've got lots of stuff and I'm looking for a nice scoped defiler, explosive equalizer and nice 60% health bonus shield. --Doctorgray 08:10, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

a few new runs bleh tired. i read how to use the debug info and looked at rarity as i did these. hoping with continuous data you need less to see stuff. inconclusive so far. took separate means of white-purple and of orange, cause they're obvious peaks. As i saw, Rarity Level: 0-5 is white, 6-10 green, 11-15 blue, 16-~32? purple, ~55?-~71? orange, 100+ white again. I remember seeing a complete list somewhere. --Raisins 11:11, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

damn dr. grey i got all the things your lookin for but alas im on xbox 360, i bet you got some good stuff too. raisins you think it looks weird now wait til my goes in cause with no mod i hit a hot streak of 50 runs where i averaged getting an orange every other run, if we counted the vending machines it would be an orange a run. i have never had a run like that before, to bad most of them sucked badly. Wylde bil 15:13, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

i hate the odd numbers so this will get back to round numbers

WITH NO CLASS MOD 416 chest opened

Wylde bil 16:40, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * orange 30
 * purple 133
 * blue 206
 * green 363
 * white 219
 * total 951

WITH MOD ON 16 chest opened


 * orange 2
 * purple 5
 * blue 9
 * green 10
 * white 4
 * total 30

this will now put us to 1500 with and 1500 without. Wylde bil 16:51, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * with bil's data --Raisins 21:35, December 16, 2009 (UTC)



that looks like the opposite of what we were trying to prove Wylde bil 23:32, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Nice raisin and bil...

Yeah what I'm talking about isn't the rarity level in terms of color, it has more to do with the parts that make up the gun. If you open up your save file in an editor you can see that each gun is made up of different parts. Even volcanos are. You'll find one volcano w/ barrel 5, 4 3, etc. This is what gives them different stats. I think these parts are what the mods effect more than anything else. Basically, instead of finding a basic or common volcano or hellfire you'd find an uncommon/rare hellfire/volcano. --Doctorgray 06:22, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Bil, I don't see the data as showing that No Mod is better. Looking at the error, the data says there is no significant difference in colours between No Mod and Mod.


 * Doctorgray, if you look at my histogram up there it suggests the same thing is true for the actual Rarity Level of guns. As a sum of values from parts, if the Mod helps guns through some specific part it must do it in a way that has a very small effect on rarity. Are there parts important to weapon quality that don't affect rarity much? Maybe the body. Have to test this, but if not, then I don't think your theory can be true.


 * If the Mod really isn't doing anything, then possible interpretations include:#the Mod doesn't work:#the Mod doesn't work on chests:#the mod doesn't work on these chests/this way
 * I'm guessing 1 or 2. Time to test some enemies perhaps. --Raisins 07:01, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * you're missing option 4--the mod doesn't effect the "color" of item text... which i think is the most reasonable conclusion given the data collected and the method. --sX-- 07:18, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * As in my reply to doctorgray immediately above, that can only work as an explanation if the Mod acts on parts that can improve weapons without increasing rarity level. Which I don't think is possible, and in any case would be a very misleading effect for a mod called Find Rare Items. Either option 2 by design or option 1 from a bug seem more likely to me. --Raisins 08:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

i think i said this above but to lazy to check, i notice that the orange and purple guns were better in my opinion with the mod on, so it probably does effect the parts, however i do not have the patience now know what to look for to help with that treatment. Wylde bil 14:15, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Unless the coding has already been figured out, I may have something to add. I cannot provide pictures, because I play on the 360, but I have noticed a couple trends after what is essentially over a thousand (sad) in the exact same way without killing any bandits, red chests only. Not only have I found that a green +2 find rare items mod with a level 48 req helped far more than a purple one with a 43 req (on the scale that I found an orange in 1/10 chests rather than 1/50) but that the weapon I hold makes an enormous difference. Not so much orange>orange, but that my Jakobs Unforgiven being out as I opened chests led to me getting exclusively orange snipers and revolvers, not a single other orange except 1 orange Mongol launcher. This is out of 20+ oranges. Then, after equipping a Fearsome Volcano and doing the same thing, I found only shotguns. Blast Butchers, Cruxes, etc. Maybe I'm not 100% on the money, but I don't see why this couldn't be a factor, if you're even considering killing an enemy... why not? --MadDiction 07:35, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

Im going to go ahead and say the mod does little to nothing at least on xbox, considering my friend and I typically do runs while i have the +2 mod on and he doesnt and we get just whatever weapons, then while im off on the phone I come back to him doing a few solo runs and opening a red chest with 2 CHIMERAS IN IT! My only ambition once my hunter hit 50 was to get a chimera and as soon as he played solo 2 of them were in one chest, with no mod. I think that may be the absolute rarest weapons crate anyone has found, the odds are probably under 1 in a million... So I do not believe in +2 being worthwhile whatsoever, i dont even put it on for runs anymore. --Manlar 09:16, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

the rarest chest i popped just for this treatment was a revolver chest with 1 dark orange, 1 orange, 1 yellow and 1 pearlescent, best ever was again a revolver chest and that was 2 dark orange, 1 yellow and 1 pearlescent those are the only 2 chests i have popped that had all 4 yellow or beater, if i remember 1 was with mod and 1 was before i got a mod. to maddiction i almost exclusively open all chests with my mash equalizer and i get all gun however, i'm starting to think it might be connected to your proficiency with the weapons, my 50 proficiency are pistols and snipers and i tend to get more of them. Wylde bil 13:23, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Body part and Rarity
Effect confirmed, unfortunately. Tested Combat Shotguns. Body 2&3 add +1 rarity, body 4 adds +3, body 5 gave +5. +5 points is a whole colour grade right there. --Raisins 05:41, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

great so basically people who play online with 4 ppl with the +2 rare finder will always have better combinations of parts thus better weapon overall, well glade i created that second profile on my xbox 360 atleast i can have 2 ppl with the +2 rare finder mods on so it will help me find some solid guns. can't wait to get online and find some trust worthy ppl to play with, to get better guns Wylde bil 06:09, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood. I was reporting that better Body parts do make the item significantly rarer. A green SG shotgun turns blue if you change it to a ZPR. We have confirmed the Mod DOESN'T increase rarity. Therefore the Mod doesn't improve body parts. We only have data for chests but as far as we know the Mod does nothing at all. --Raisins 07:01, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm most definitely missing something. rasins, do you have facebook, aim, or skype? i'd like to have a "live" chat so i can get a better understanding of how things are supposed to work and what testing has shown. (a shoutbox would be great on this wikia) --sX-- 03:40, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * What we need to do is find an area that always has a set number of bad guys, and do 3000 runs through it (collectively) with mod and without, and see if that has any effect. Pdboddy 14:13, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

@Raisins... I'm not sure if I completely agree 100%, but your premise is solid. We did substantially prove that color is not effected by the mod. Therefore, if the rarity of parts is effects color than it is likely that rarity of parts is also unaffected. I originally thought this was not the case because the only DVL Volcano I've found was w/ +4 in game, however that could be chance.

If you guys don't understand what he's saying, here's a simple analogy.

We've proven that A is not affected by B. Therfore if C is a subset of A, C is not effected by B.

A = Color, B = +2 Mods, C = Internal Gun Parts

In other words, an SMG is made up of X number of parts, the rarity of these parts effects the color of the SMG. If the +2 Mod doesn't effect the color, it is likely that it doesn't effect the parts. If the +2 Mod did effect the parts, it would in turn also effect color. (Which we know it doesn't.)

--Doctorgray 09:22, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Clumsy analogy: The experiment proved that the +2 Find Rare Items Mod does not make weapons "Gain Weight". I found out that body parts are "High in Fat". So the mod can't be giving better body parts. --Raisins 20:51, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah... that is troubling. it's just looking like either the mod doesn't effect chests, or it effects something that isn't obvious. even if the data wasn't perfect, i still think it should've shown a shift up toward orange with the mod on (which we haven't). i think the only thing left to do now is to run a test on enemy drops... to rule out the mod just not effecting chests. the problem is, this is going to probably be a much bigger pain to record. another option is to try to deduce what +2 rare items effects exactly before going into the next test. my question is... is it possible to have a weapon with the same level, the same parts, but with different stats? because if every incarnation of a weapon made of the same parts always comes up with the same numbers (with no variance), this would point heavily toward supporting the "mod doesn't effect chests" guess. --sX-- 22:17, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you count manufacturer, material, prefix and tile as parts (and why wouldn't you) then yes. Stats are the same every time for the same list of parts and the same quality. (Quality is basically gun level, it's a number from 0-5 that only affects level required and damage. level 48 guns are all quality 5) --Raisins 22:50, December 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * So unless there is something wrong with the data, the mods don't effect chests. I think that given what we're measuring, the test should be good enough to show some sort of effect, so i wouldn't suggest another test on chests without looking elsewhere first. looks like the next step is onto mob farming. --sX-- 01:33, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Preliminary results for enemy drops
Killed the shack full of bandits just outside new haven on the way to rust commons. 10 times with the mod on, 10 times without. Bad news:
 * average rarity
 * 5.4 ± 1.0 with mod
 * 5.4 ± 0.8 with no mod

Unless there's a big flaw in our assumptions I'm becoming convinced the mod does jack. --Raisins 04:06, December 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Not good. Might straighten out with more runs. I'm going to try to get ahold of the pc version in the next week. The only thing that looks promising is that the with mod on has one higher rarity item. --sX-- 07:26, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

I ran a quick and dirty experiment and found that +1000 rare item find (modded) has no immediately recognizable impact on drops. A few notes: +scavenge extra items modded in the same fashion as rare item find was (i.e. added to a health pack) works. This is clear from the way Borderlands gobbles all your RAM then crashes when it tries to drop hundreds of items at once. I didn't run any protracted tests on item quality as I was trying a more brute force method, but it's clear that one of the following is true:


 * Rare item find is not working at all
 * Rare item find does not stack (could check other +team mods to test?)
 * Rare item find behaves differently than scavenge when modded in (very doubtful)
 * Item drops operate within some sort of range. One possibility is that each drop could roll for a random loot table (not modified by +rare find) which has upper and lower quality limits and where the item falls within that table is the value that +rare find modifies.

I'm leaning towards the idea that the loot generation is a lot more complicated than we think. --Anon


 * I think +Find Rare just doesn't work. There are a lot of bugs in this game, and we know for a fact that the Class Mod extra effects specifically were NOT tested very well: several of them are obviously bugged like Roland's rifleman and Brick's Bombardier. How does putting skills on a health pack work? Are they active until reloading after using it? --Raisins 19:14, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

A common modding trick is placing class mod bonuses on health packs. It's an easy and stable way to apply them. Once used, the class mod effect stays in effect until the game is reloaded. If I can find some free time, I'll test a few other bonuses to see how many may be broken. To date, I just know that +scavenge extra works/stacks, +cooldown reduction does not work/stack.

I Read The Forum But This Random Thing Happened, I Was In Jakobs Cove Killing Things With My Mod Until I Killed A Bunch Of Corpse Eaters They Dropped 5 Purple Weapons Then The Other Day I Found Two Hyperion Invaders In A Row Without My Mod. I Think In The Zombie Island "Gearbox" Intentionally Made The Rarity Rate Higher, Because For Some Reason You Get Common Weapons if You Put The Mod On In Zombie Island --User:720M37H3U5